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We've sort of gotten off subject and I'd like to bring it back. I recently acquired a copy of the Cliffs Notes on Jane Eyre and there are questions in it that I think might be interesting to explore. Anyone interested?

I'm in.

All right. Maybe the others might join later.

Here's a question we can ask and answer:

Discuss the theme of pride as it affects the three major characters - St. John Rivers, Edward Rochester, and Jane Eyre.

My take on this is that St. John is blind to everyone else's point of view. His religious fanaticism does not allow him to understand more earthly, more human concerns. He feels he can submit a more feeble mind and tries to subdue Jane's will. It's surprising, though, that he didn't just marry Rosamund and force her to be a missionary's wife.

Edward is so proud that he could not allow anyone to know he married a mad woman. He suffered for this pride when he lost Jane, even though temporarily. He suffered quite harshly, since he lost a hand and an eye.

Jane's pride is more true and pure. Her pride is in her value for herself, her belief in God and moral values. It carried her through her early years and even though she did suffer unhappiness when she left Rochester, she was able to find a measure of happiness with the Rivers family.

MysteryMind Wrote:My take on this is that St. John is blind to everyone else's point of view. His religious fanaticism does not allow him to understand more earthly, more human concerns. He feels he can submit a more feeble mind and tries to subdue Jane's will. It's surprising, though, that he didn't just marry Rosamund and force her to be a missionary's wife.

Edward is so proud that he could not allow anyone to know he married a mad woman. He suffered for this pride when he lost Jane, even though temporarily. He suffered quite harshly, since he lost a hand and an eye.

Jane's pride is more true and pure. Her pride is in her value for herself, her belief in God and moral values. It carried her through her early years and even though she did suffer unhappiness when she left Rochester, she was able to find a measure of happiness with the Rivers family.

I agree with you on each point. I'm embarrassed to admit that I usually skip the St. John part of the book. I find him a frustrating character that I can't connect with. His stubborn resistance to happiness is unfathomable to me. He claims to be religious, but I find him a hard and stubborn man who wants the prestige and the martyrdom of missionary work rather than the actual helping of human beings.

Edward is very proud and won't admit having a mad wife, but I also find him arrogant. He wants to control Jane, even though he loves her. Prior to the wedding, he wants her to buy certain clothes and he wants her all to himself. He is very selfish and wants her to become his platonic mistress after his secret is revealed. He is only humbled after the fire and his male arrogance is vanquished. He is now dependent on Jane and pride does him no good.

As for Jane, she has a healthy pride which is more like self-esteem. She takes care of herself, but feels no need to control anyone else.

It seems we agree on that point. How about how religion affects or influences certain characters in the book: Mr. Brocklehurst, Helen Burns, Jane Eyre, St. John, Edward? (I can't think of anyone else in the book who referred to religion.)

I'll start with Brocklehurst: What a pompous ass! He reminds me of several characters from Dickens' novels. He is blind to his own and his family's faults and uses God to instill fear into others. Or perhaps he likes to attribute his own sins to others. You can see how stupid he was when he asked his son whether he wanted the nuts or a passage of the Psalms, and when his son answered that he wanted the Psalms, he was rewarded with the nuts. I think his family knows how to manipulate him.

MysteryMind Wrote:It seems we agree on that point. How about how religion affects or influences certain characters in the book: Mr. Brocklehurst, Helen Burns, Jane Eyre, St. John, Edward? (I can't think of anyone else in the book who referred to religion.)

I'll start with Brocklehurst: What a pompous ass! He reminds me of several characters from Dickens' novels. He is blind to his own and his family's faults and uses God to instill fear into others. Or perhaps he likes to attribute his own sins to others. You can see how stupid he was when he asked his son whether he wanted the nuts or a passage of the Psalms, and when his son answered that he wanted the Psalms, he was rewarded with the nuts. I think his family knows how to manipulate him.

Mr. Brocklehurst is definitely one of the villains in the book. He is a hypocrite and a cruel man. He submits the girls to starvation and sickness in the name of "religion" even though his own family is not subjected to the same standards. This is a man like too many in the world today who use religion for their own ends and pick and choose those parts of the Bible that suit their purposes. Even though I am not a believer, I think that Miss Temple was the real "Christian" in the school because of her compassion and kindness. She is the one who "tamed" Jane, not Brocklehurst and his sadistic methods.

As for Helen, while I liked her (how can you not?) her blind adherence to religion frustrated me. I understand there was little she could do to change her situation, but she was so passive and meek. She was a saint and welcomed her punishments. I suppose she was the Christ-like figure that we are supposed to emulate, but Charlotte Bronte doesn't really revisit the character after her death. She doesn't serve as a role model for Jane for the rest of the book. In fact, the adult Jane's behavior is very un-Helen-like.

Remember too that 1 or 2 of Charlotte's sisters died at an institution like Brocklehurst's which would explain the deep anger I at least feel in the passages.

I apologize to you, Desdemona, since you're the only one holding this discussion with me. I've kinda left off without any closure. I'd like to next bring up the theme of repression as it relates to Jane Eyre.

Repression always seems to be present in Gothic novels. I believe it lends the story some tension. For some characters, it leads to depression. For others, overcoming the repression or the repressive force allows them to be free/liberated. Many of the characters in Jane Eyre were repressed, whether physically, emotionally, sexually or spiritually.

Jane, as the protagonist, suffered repression at different stages and how she overcomes the repression is the essential plot of the story. As a child, she was physically and emotionally repressed by the Reed clan. Bessie witnessed this and tried, in her own way, to bring Jane out of her shell. Finally, when she was pushed too far, she retaliated, both to Mrs. Reed and her son, John. Jane sensed a momentary triumph, but fear returned. At the Lowood Institution, Jane is spiritually repressed by the idiotic Mr. Brocklehurst. But with good role models, like Helen and Ms. Temple, she matures and develops her own spirituality. When Jane falls in love and discovers that she cannot marry the man she loves, she denies herself the chance to be with him and live as his mistress. She becomes sexually repressed. It's not until St. John's persistent pleadings pushes her to the limit that she discovers her only chance of happiness was to return to Edward.

We can continue to discuss the theme of repression as it relates to the other characters.

I think repression is definitely a theme of the book. I've never read a biography of Charlotte Bronte, but I doubt that she consciously wrote about this topic. I think it seeped into her writing as a result of her life experience, the times in which she lived and her family background.

Everyone in the book is repressed in one way or another. Characters are repressed as a result of gender, class, and religion. The women clearly suffer the most. A number of the characters are emotionally constrained, unable and unwilling to reveal their feelings (aside from being unable to control their own destinies because they are women.) Mrs. Reed is emotionally repressed, having never had a loving relationship with her husband or son. Her daughters don't much care for her. And the oldest Reed girl who became a nun? That is a VERY tightly wound character.

Who is the most repressed of all though? It must be St. John. At first, it is because of class issues, but then because of his own arrogance and martyrdom. How painful and lonely such lives must be!

I'm not a fan of Helen. I find her martyrdom as incomprehensible as St. John's. She is clearly a victim and never shows anger. I think it's people like Helen who are the doormats of the world. I understand that she is powerless, but she doesn't even have the will to fight. But then again, I'm not a religious person so that may be why I can't accept Helen. I find her just as repressed as anyone else.

I agree, Desdemona. I am a religious/spiritual person, but neither Helen nor St. John appealed to me, either. It's one thing to be repressed by others or by your surrounding environment, but it's another to repress yourself - and I felt that both these characters purposefully repress themselves, for the sake of God. Although that type of martyrdom may be viewed as admirable, as a real person, I felt frustrated by their words and actions. I believe Jane felt the same way towards them, but one she loved for her sweetness and the other repelled her because of what he was asking of her. Did you notice that both characters died fairly young?

The setting of the story is Victorian and that was a very restricting age, so this period is very conducive to the repression theme and to Gothic novels. If you've ever read any Dickens novels you'd understand the bleakness of this time.

Your assessment of some of the characters are quite humorous. I was surprised to find that the eldest Reed girl became a nun - and a Catholic one I believe. That brings up another theme in the early Gothics - a "rebellion" against the Catholic Church. Although it wasn't forceful, Jane's response to Helen and St. John seems to underline the antagonism towards religious extremism. Bronte's presentation of Brocklehurst could be said to do the same. What do you think?

MysteryMind Wrote:Your assessment of some of the characters are quite humorous. I was surprised to find that the eldest Reed girl became a nun - and a Catholic one I believe. That brings up another theme in the early Gothics - a "rebellion" against the Catholic Church. Although it wasn't forceful, Jane's response to Helen and St. John seems to underline the antagonism towards religious extremism. Bronte's presentation of Brocklehurst could be said to do the same. What do you think?

Yes, I do see a resistance to extremism. I believe this was in part influenced by her awful experience at the Clergy Daughters School. It served as a model for Lowood and its conditions are blamed for the deaths of two of her sisters. How sad that Lowood was not just a fictional creation.

I think that Gothic literature in general tends to be anti-Catholic. I think that post-Mary I, England became more and more anti-Catholic. So many of the early classic Gothics have evil priests or monks running around. Or nuns are sleeping around. I think that the English Protestant culture viewed Catholicism as Papists, sensual and devious. Not terribly surprising considering that there were so many abuses by the Catholic Church that earned them such a reputation. (Having been raised Catholic and still being of a Catholic culture, I feel like I can get away with saying this....heeeee!)